Anonymous Tribler?

Comments and or questions about Tribler

Anonymous Tribler?

Postby xblue74 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:14 am

I heard that the Tribler team was working on a fast and anonymous bittorrent client a few months ago. I havnt been following up on it like I should, but I was curious how far a long they have made it. I looked around for blogs or updates but found none. It was expected to be done around this time the last I heard. Anyways, I was just checking in on the whole project :D .
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Re: Anonymous Tribler?

Postby root » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:00 pm

Anonymous Tribler is coming...

Many people are working on this already and I've hired more people.
The upcoming version Tribler 6.0 is preparing already for anonimity.
However, it will still take half a year before we really offer strong protection.

The idea is to really combine speed with anonimity, which I believe requires
re-inventing Bitcoin for Bittorrent. This gives people an incentive to seed&proxy.
So it's not trivial, it's never been solved before, but I'm confidant that it's coming. -j
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Re: Anonymous Tribler?

Postby xblue74 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:21 am

root wrote:Anonymous Tribler is coming...

Many people are working on this already and I've hired more people.
The upcoming version Tribler 6.0 is preparing already for anonimity.
However, it will still take half a year before we really offer strong protection.

The idea is to really combine speed with anonimity, which I believe requires
re-inventing Bitcoin for Bittorrent. This gives people an incentive to seed&proxy.
So it's not trivial, it's never been solved before, but I'm confidant that it's coming. -j


I`m glad to hear this. Does this mean Tribler 6.0 has some anonymity or at least more anonymity than most bittorrent clients?
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Re: Anonymous Tribler?

Postby root » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:58 am

xblue74 wrote:
root wrote:Anonymous Tribler is coming...

I`m glad to hear this. Does this mean Tribler 6.0 has some anonymity or at least more anonymity than most bittorrent clients?


Nope, we don't want to give people a false sense of security.
Having *lots* of proxies requires having private communities and next-generation Bitcoin I believe.
So we need that first.

To put it a bit more dramatic: for over 10 years we're trying to improve tit-for-tat and we're slowly getting there.
Improving human cooperation and incentives to contribute to the common good is hard.
We're including a test version of a novel incentive, similar to sharing ratio enforcement of private communities.
It's simple: leave your computer on for longer and you will get priority next time. No uploading needed (although it helps).

One of our key scientific publications about this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/59353089/Fast-Download-but-Eternal-Seeding. It shows we might get the benefits of ratio-enforcement, without the drawbacks.
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Re: Anonymous Tribler?

Postby xblue74 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:43 pm

root wrote:
xblue74 wrote:
root wrote:Anonymous Tribler is coming...

I`m glad to hear this. Does this mean Tribler 6.0 has some anonymity or at least more anonymity than most bittorrent clients?


Nope, we don't want to give people a false sense of security.
Having *lots* of proxies requires having private communities and next-generation Bitcoin I believe.
So we need that first.

To put it a bit more dramatic: for over 10 years we're trying to improve tit-for-tat and we're slowly getting there.
Improving human cooperation and incentives to contribute to the common good is hard.
We're including a test version of a novel incentive, similar to sharing ratio enforcement of private communities.
It's simple: leave your computer on for longer and you will get priority next time. No uploading needed (although it helps).

One of our key scientific publications about this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/59353089/Fast-Download-but-Eternal-Seeding. It shows we might get the benefits of ratio-enforcement, without the drawbacks.


I love this, and defiantly rewards people for seeding. I use public trackers because of the wide collection of content they have, and my download speeds are defiantly slower than what it would be if I was using a private tracker because of the leechers. Even though my upload rate is not the best in the world, I always do my part and seed past a 1.0 ratio. It kills me to know others stop the torrent as soon as it finishes and set the upload rate to 1kbs while downloading because their are no consequences.

Are you not afraid that once people realize they are getting slower download speeds from abusing the system, that they will switch to another client?
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Re: Anonymous Tribler?

Postby root » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:10 pm

xblue74 wrote:Are you not afraid that once people realize they are getting slower download speeds from abusing the system, that they will switch to another client?

Tribler == Social...

Would be interesting: Tribler is only for cooperative people, because selfish people have faster downloads with other clients. They run away. Hence, we are only left with good seeders and everyone gets a fast download experience.
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Re: Anonymous Tribler?

Postby vvs » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:45 am

The game theory suggests that cooperation brings more benefits than selfish acts. I'm not saying that many people even aware of the game theory existence, but it's true nevertheless. So, those who cooperate will gain more benefits, while those who don't will lose it. It's that simple.
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Re: Anonymous Tribler?

Postby root » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:21 am

vvs wrote:The game theory suggests that cooperation brings more benefits than selfish acts. I'm not saying that many people even aware of the game theory existence, but it's true nevertheless. So, those who cooperate will gain more benefits, while those who don't will lose it. It's that simple.

Yes, cooperation should make Tribler better for everybody.
But it's not easy...

We've build ''reliability tracking'' in V6.0 to determine which peer has been more cooperative.
Tribler now features rendezvous counting in the P2P overlay. When you connect to the network you are required to ping your neighbours at least once per 60 seconds to keep the UDO NAT puncture open. Tribler now using these pings as a measure for reliability. We hope people don't perceive this as spying on fellow peers.

For V6.1 we plan to use reliability tracking for preferential treatment of peers.
In this version we're just testing the reliability tracking, next version we give good behaving peers download priority. Now we're seeing if it all works as expected in-the-wild.

So cooperation should give you a reward soon...
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Re: Anonymous Tribler?

Postby xblue74 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:05 am

root wrote:
vvs wrote:The game theory suggests that cooperation brings more benefits than selfish acts. I'm not saying that many people even aware of the game theory existence, but it's true nevertheless. So, those who cooperate will gain more benefits, while those who don't will lose it. It's that simple.

Yes, cooperation should make Tribler better for everybody.
But it's not easy...

We've build ''reliability tracking'' in V6.0 to determine which peer has been more cooperative.
Tribler now features rendezvous counting in the P2P overlay. When you connect to the network you are required to ping your neighbours at least once per 60 seconds to keep the UDO NAT puncture open. Tribler now using these pings as a measure for reliability. We hope people don't perceive this as spying on fellow peers.

For V6.1 we plan to use reliability tracking for preferential treatment of peers.
In this version we're just testing the reliability tracking, next version we give good behaving peers download priority. Now we're seeing if it all works as expected in-the-wild.

So cooperation should give you a reward soon...


Will only people with a Tribler client have access to the Tribler peers? So uTorrent users will not have any access to the Tribler peers? So essentially for tribler users it would be like this?

Seeders from other Trackers + Tribler Seeders (If they are seeding the same torrent) = Faster download speeds?
Last edited by xblue74 on Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anonymous Tribler?

Postby vvs » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:38 am

xblue74 wrote:only people with a Tribler client has access to the Tribler peers? So uTorrent users will not have any access to the Tribler peers?

Why do you think so? Tribler always used torrent trackers and DHT like other clients do. But the search and effort communities are unique to it, so the other clients can't search in Tribler overlay network nor can they get speed boost for their behaviour.
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Re: Anonymous Tribler?

Postby xblue74 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:50 am

vvs wrote:
xblue74 wrote:only people with a Tribler client has access to the Tribler peers? So uTorrent users will not have any access to the Tribler peers?

Why do you think so? Tribler always used torrent trackers and DHT like other clients do. But the search and effort communities are unique to it, so the other clients can't search in Tribler overlay network nor can they get speed boost for their behaviour.


Yeah, I misinterpret everything. I wasn't sure how Tribler would treat other peers outside of tribler. I was under the impression that they would not be able to at all since they could not be labeled as cooperative or uncooperative. I realize now that would not be possible unless tribler had its own exclusive tracker, which is not the case. My mistake. So if I understand correctly, the seeders of tribler will give the cooperative people of tribler first priority (better speeds), but will still seed to others outside of tribler as any other client would.

Edited to clear things up.
Last edited by xblue74 on Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:26 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Anonymous Tribler?

Postby Apothos » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:14 am

root wrote:Anonymous Tribler is coming...

Many people are working on this already and I've hired more people.
The upcoming version Tribler 6.0 is preparing already for anonimity.
However, it will still take half a year before we really offer strong protection.

The idea is to really combine speed with anonimity, which I believe requires
re-inventing Bitcoin for Bittorrent. This gives people an incentive to seed&proxy.
So it's not trivial, it's never been solved before, but I'm confidant that it's coming. -j


This would be spectacular, Thanks a lot to everyone working on the Tribler project. 8-)
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Re: Anonymous Tribler?

Postby root » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:57 am

xblue74 wrote:Tribler wants to instead make sure the people who seed get the better download speed than the people who leech. If I understand correctly, Tribler can control who the seeders seed to. So Tribler seeders will make the "good" Tribler Users its first priority before it will start seeding to the bad tribler users. Im still curious on how its going to play out. Hopefully it will bring all the good seeders to Tribler.

Indeed, seeding will give you superior download speed. Going beyond T4T and making private community central servers obsolete :-)

Remember that for proper privacy protection we will turn on hard crypto. Tribler probably will support a "dual stack" approach. Download in the open with Bittorrent if you still want that. Plus download using a *new* and faster P2P protocol called Libswift plus darknet (proxy) features.

Default is up for discussion. It could be this: try secure for 1 minute, then default back to open Bittorrent. User can override this behavior with "no unsecure downloads" setting. Default seeding is "encrypted secure uploading only", with option to do "upload in Bittorrent upto 1.0 ratio".

Any thoughts on this?
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Re: Anonymous Tribler?

Postby xblue74 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:51 am

root wrote:Indeed, seeding will give you superior download speed. Going beyond T4T and making private community central servers obsolete :-)

Remember that for proper privacy protection we will turn on hard crypto. Tribler probably will support a "dual stack" approach. Download in the open with Bittorrent if you still want that. Plus download using a *new* and faster P2P protocol called Libswift plus darknet (proxy) features.

Default is up for discussion. It could be this: try secure for 1 minute, then default back to open Bittorrent. User can override this behavior with "no unsecure downloads" setting. Default seeding is "encrypted secure uploading only", with option to do "upload in Bittorrent upto 1.0 ratio".

Any thoughts on this?

Im not quite sure what some of this means :D , but when will we see this in Tribler? Will this keep us completely anonymous without having to use a VPN? Will my ISP see what I am downloading? Could anyone be able to see my real ip in anyway?

I apologize for all the question, just really curious about all of this.
Last edited by xblue74 on Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anonymous Tribler?

Postby root » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:21 pm

xblue74 wrote:Im not quite sure what some of this means :D , but when will we see this in Tribler? Will this keep us completely anonymous without having to use a VPN? Will my ISP see what I am downloading? Could anyone be able to see my real ip in anyway?

Thnx for the quick feedback. Absolute anonimity and security is something we cannot offer, not even VPN providers.

We aim to have a system where governments and ISPs cannot spy on you. Our first darknet release is still forming, due in early 2013. Aim for first release is to provide superior protection, when compared to a VPN. It should be impossible to link your IP address to a download.
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Re: Anonymous Tribler?

Postby Apothos » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:00 am

root wrote:We aim to have a system where governments and ISPs cannot spy on you. Our first darknet release is still forming, due in early 2013. Aim for first release is to provide superior protection, when compared to a VPN. It should be impossible to link your IP address to a download.


Cool! 8-)
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Re: Anonymous Tribler?

Postby uLoop » Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:50 pm

I just had an idea on a way to provide partial anonymity, with much lower resource use than a full onion routing. It is simple at the core: only anonymize a portion of the connections, but all peers must route some of the anyonymized traffic. This would not create strong anonymity, but it would introduce a serious amount of uncertainty into any IP address harvested by malicious peers. And this would require way less network resources than a full-on darknet or onion routing.
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Re: Anonymous Tribler?

Postby vvs » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:08 pm

The new law in Russia requires ISP to block any forbidden traffic by using deep packet inspection. And there is another proposed one to forbid any torrent related connections. I think that pseudonymous downloads are only part of the solution. The connections should be encrypted and obfuscated so that no application layer inspection would be possible.
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Re: Anonymous Tribler?

Postby root » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:09 pm

vvs wrote:The new law in Russia requires ISP to block any forbidden traffic by using deep packet inspection. And there is another proposed one to forbid any torrent related connections. I think that pseudonymous downloads are only part of the solution. The connections should be encrypted and obfuscated so that no application layer inspection would be possible.

Yes, it's sad the direction the world is taking.

Indeed, when going full-force against a nation-state you need full stealth (crypto+traffic hiding).

Happy to report that the official Internet people published our work: http://www.internetsociety.org/articles/moving-toward-censorship-free-internet. It outlines what you need to support an Arab Spring scenario plus threat modelling.

We are in slight competition, but it's sad to see the lack of progress within the field, like our colleges of Tor and Gnunet. We hope to make solid progress soon, but it's slooow. Within 2 weeks we aim to release a Android app with No Internet Needed video sharing. Using our new Libswift P2P core and NFC/Bluetooth for easy sync. It will be next to impossible for governments to prevent Bump&Sync style sharing. An Internet Kill Switch will not help. -j
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Re: Anonymous Tribler?

Postby vvs » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:37 pm

Congratulations to all of your team. That's why the so many people are interested in your work. In the increasingly Orwellian world we need completely decentralised Internet out of anyone' control. Nobody wants that Big Brother would watch him.
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